Interview with the Director of the Institute of Problems of Artificial Intelligence

– You support the idea of creating artificial intelligence as a mechanism that will prevent self-liquidation of the humanity. Do you think this is relevant today?

– I do. And I am glad that the leadership of our state and relevant state structures realize how important this is. Recently, the Institute of Artificial Intelligence, which I head, was asked to develop a Strategy for the Development of Artificial Intelligence in Ukraine. As our institution is under double subordination, these issues are taken care of by both the Academy of Sciences and the Ministry of Education of Ukraine. More than 120 Doctors of Sciences are involved in this work, including the heads of the departments of artificial intelligence of higher education institutions. The concept of creating artificial intelligence developed by the Ministry of Digital Transformation is taken into account. The concept is practically a development plan, it envisages the use of foreign programs, algorithms, etc. For now, we need to have our own, which is what I insist on.

– Until 2014, your Institute was located in Donetsk. What about now, when that city is on the other side of the front?

– With the relocation of the Institute to Kyiv due to the fighting in the Donetsk region, we suffered very serious losses, because we failed to take with us any programs, any computers, any robots. And five of them have already been created and the sixth was nearing completion.

– Did the works have a specific purpose?

– They are self-propelled, with elements of artificial intelligence, made for various firms, including special agencies of Ukraine. For example, a robot with its own power plant to search for mines. Having found a mine, it decides in a real situation what to do with it: to neutralize, blow up, or leave a check mark next to it. The robot makes all the necessary decisions itself. This is an element of artificial intelligence.

– Have such inventions been evaluated?

– We developed this a decade and a half ago and demonstrated it at the big scientific exhibition CeBIT in Hanover, Germany.

At that time, our Institute was represented by a delegation, which included two dozen scientists from the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences and the Ministry of Education. None of the experts present at first believed that such specimens were created in Ukraine. By the way, at that time the Institute was actively developing, we could afford to bring our delegation to the exhibition in Germany on our own bus.

– Could you tell us about your scientific institution, in particular, whose idea was to create it, what prompted it and when did such activities begin?

– Back in Soviet times, in the 1980s, a design bureau (KB) was created, and two years later — the Institute. Then, in 1994, the institution became an educational institute, and 8 years later — the State University of Informatics and Artificial Intelligence, which had nearly two and a half thousand students and about six hundred employees. Everyone was engaged in an interesting and difficult task — creating artificial intelligence. It is not easy, it is impossible for any ordinary institution to fulfill this task on its own. After all, this requires bringing together scientists from different fields.

– A cause that promises a lot, high “dividends” included. I did read about such a promising activity, which is still sometimes perceived as fiction.

– If you mean the wealth that can be obtained by establishing the production of robots with artificial intelligence, it is difficult to deny this approach.

To tell the truth, for some reason in our country the task of creating such systems and breakthrough technologies that can be offered for sale on world markets has never been set. This is a theme for a separate conversation, but I will point out the obvious: today foreign companies order in our country engineering research on the terms of grants, on the basis of separate agreements and so on. Having received these developments, they have the rights to the intellectual property of the final product, and sell all these systems and developments, including to Ukraine!

– You mean, for grants they get an effective product, which is implemented in a more global research and production network, and then benefit from it?

– Exactly. Especially since their task is to create a new generation machine.

Of course, the fourth generation of computers will be followed by the fifth, sixth generation and so on. But now the activity in this direction has practically stopped, because developers earn money by fulfilling minor orders.

– A reflection of the fact that science is getting commercialized?

– Many countries are trying to create a new generation computer (and will create one soon), but which country will enter the world market with it? Those, interested in this global project, distribute separate tasks among the executors — Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and provide grants. After that, the accumulated experience is combined into a single product to bring it to the world market.

– What are the parameters of the new generation computer, or are they just anybody’s guess based on the characteristics of the order and grants?

– As part of the Strategy for the Development of Artificial Intelligence, I have already introduced a new generation machine with blocks of artificial intelligence, artificial conscience, etc., which allows to make decisions without humans under certain conditions. For example, when it is not possible to consult with someone in outer space, where it takes the radio wave several minutes or hours to get to the Earth. That is, it is necessary to respond to the problem there and then. And this requires appropriate capabilities and means.

Here we have the scientific development of “DOT” — a long-term firing point in a concrete shell, which has the appropriate means for intelligence, identification of targets, and fire damage. Its task is on the front line of confrontation with the enemy to identify an armed person, child, animal, etc., to decide what exactly is the real enemy target for destruction. In modern conditions, when there is no constant fire, the system is in contact with the operator. But when active hostilities begin, it no longer asks him for permission to destroy enemy targets.

– Is only the enemy destroyed, not the person who could have got there by accident?

– Having given the machine elements of “conscience” similar to human one, we model a situation: it is necessary to destroy the person. And the machine denies, because it violates the laws of Ukraine. Then we “teach” it: on the front line we defend our Motherland, and in case of hostilities we must destroy the enemy. The machine reacts: to kill a person is a violation of the law, but since there are such relevant circumstances that I am useful in defending the state, I will do it.

Due to such, as we say, additional conditions, the machine can operate quite differently than originally intended. These are the elements of artificial intelligence. In our Strategy for Development of Artificial Intelligence such conceptual scheme was presented.

If we talk about such a Strategy in Ukraine, then after studying and considering it must be approved either by Presidential Decree or by the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine. It is being developed by remembering that today there are more than 50 countries in the world with national strategies for the development of artificial intelligence. Ukraine is not on such a list yet. As it is not possible to create a competitive system at least on an experimental level.

– What, in your opinion, do we lack in such a case?

– We need a completely new point of view at this topic or issue, we need to create one that will work as a unique product. Our Strategy states that it is being developed for a country with a very high intelligence of scientists, but a lack of funding. So we found a way to resolve this problem with limited funding. And everything is written in the Strategy, it is not a secret document.

– When the relatively young Soviet state was inferior to the more developed West, then the task was set for the ministries of industrial policy, agriculture, defense and all relevant departments to close the gap. Through exerting own efforts, purchasing or stealing at international exhibitions, integrating own intelligence agents  in order to obtain the necessary information from breakthrough spheres, from space to the study of the depths of the sea. At present, is it expedient to involve in the implementation of such a task, for example, something like the former Intelligence Committee under the President of Ukraine and the National Security and Defense Council?

– I am not against such approaches, especially when a new vision of the role of artificial intelligence appears. You know, at the very beginning of our work, we were perceived as pseudo-scientists, like cybernetics was once perceived. We have passed this stage. But the leaders of many countries have not simply acknowledged that the world’s superiority will be on the side of the country where artificial intelligence will be created. You can draw conclusions…

After reporting to the National Security and Defense Council on the Strategy for the Development of Artificial Intelligence in Ukraine, I felt that it was perceived positively, as they agreed with me that without it we would not really determine the direction of our further development. What I mean is that many different projects are being considered and approved today by all ministries, including our Ministry of Education and Science, but these projects are virtually unrelated. Some of them are not needed by Ukraine.

The Ministry of Defense supports our work, considering it extremely useful, and you understand why. But to say so about the vision of the global strategy for the development of our science or the State as a whole… In fact, this also prompted us to tackle the task of creating artificial intelligence. We have not developed a Strategy for the development of science in general, we offer in what we believe we are experts.

As for our achievements, we have already been asked to sell them to both Russians and representatives of Germany. We have unequivocally stated: we want the information product to be marked: “Created in Ukraine”. On the other hand, some of our scientists are not sure that we can create anything. They say that no matter what we offer now, it has already been created and sold by foreign companies because, as a rule, our ideas have either been intercepted and developed, or implemented in other countries.

– With the creation of artificial intelligence, will there be a threat about which Elon Musk once said that artificial intelligence will eventually destroy us?

– The process of civilization development cannot be stopped, so artificial intelligence will be studied. It is now more important to help humanity preserve our civilization, the fate of which may depend on one person or a group of people, sometimes unpredictable in their actions. Therefore, it is necessary to create a high-tech system which would prevent such intentions, that is, it would stop the execution of the command to press the “nuclear button”.

– If human intelligence is connected with its consciousness, its algorithm of actions, then what can be said about the numerous block diagrams, publications and demonstrations of robotic systems that exist in public? Is it open advertising, marketing technologies?

– Yes, in other words, ordinary business uses the original term to obtain financing. I repeat: it is more appropriate to use a term such as machine intelligence or electronic intelligence.

We have no right to associate these newly created systems with human intelligence if we do not know what it is. If we use our definition that human intelligence is a system of algorithms created by its consciousness, then this system is controlled by consciousness. If we ignore this principle, we will create artificial intelligence that can get out of human control. Especially for some technical problems, in particular, the failure of the capacitor or transistor, when the artificial system acts completely differently than expected. In this case, someone must stop the uncontrolled system. Therefore, a separate system must function, controlling the internal state of already “artificial consciousness”, and if necessary, it stops the previously obtained task.

– Anatolii Ivanovych, you headed the Institute of Artificial Intelligence in Soviet times, so you can compare how it was perceived at that time and how it is perceived today.

– The USSR was seriously interested in artificial intelligence, the KGB involved me in in such activity in 1972. While living in Donetsk at the time, I performed important tasks of monitoring the air, which, as we know, was then carefully monitored, and the recorded conversations were analyzed. I remember the events of that time, in particular, in Iran, the consequences of them for the United States. Question: Why did the US Central Intelligence Agency not warn its relevant agencies in advance to prevent these troubles, hostilities, etc.? It later turned out that the CIA did not have at least two years to decipher the information. After that, they realized that the information should be analyzed for existing threats using certain keywords. For example, the development of titanium deposits in the Soviet Union for the manufacture of nuclear warheads. Or the creation of rockets as a means of delivery, or to transport strategic stockpiles for the production of nuclear weapons. Many specialists are needed for its timely processing. Therefore, a special design bureau “Intellect” for automated information processing was created in Donetsk. Initially, the project was funded by the USSR’s KGB, later by the Ukrainian Security Service (at the time, it seems, the Ministry of Security of Ukraine). The bureau initially compiled a list of 50 key words for such information. Then the number of the words increased.

Foreign intelligences were already aware of a plan to establish a bureau in the USSR to study the problems of artificial intelligence. Trying to hide its location, in the USSR chose industrial Donetsk — because who would have thought then that in the area where coal is mined, they are studying high technology and developing artificial intelligence?

– This sounds like when in order to hide the construction of a spaceport on Baikonur, they announced the Virgin Lands campaign, where they began to bring tractors and combines, but in fact the necessary equipment for rocket launchers… As we have touched upon the security of the state, how, in your opinion, during the confrontation of the two world systems the very idea appeared to use artificial intelligence?

– The term “artificial intelligence” first appeared in the 1950s, at a conference in the United States. At that time, scientists did not quite realize what tasks it would perform. And, probably, even today, despite numerous projects with the use of robots, allegedly with artificial intelligence, there is still no clear understanding in this regard. Yes, there are many publications, but few of them deserve attention. So far, the academic science believes that today there are no systems with artificial intelligence. After all, all the programs that operate in the above-mentioned China or the United States, including the demonstration of their activities, were created by man. There is nothing created by the system itself yet!

In 1994, when Ukraine became independent, we refused to move to Russia. It was not made public then, but now that we have such a difficult relationship with it, I think I can already tell. The National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and the Ministry of Education of Ukraine took our Institute on balance, we began to work, in particular in the field of medicine, pedagogy, psychology, creating systems with artificial intelligence. Such developments are needed not only in the military, but also in other spheres. In particular, we now have a chatbot “psychologist”, a chatbot “teacher”. They work without human intervention and set tasks for students. The chatbot checks the tasks performed by students, determines how well they know the subject, how much they master the subject.

– So, when you talk about chatbots, you mean the present moment?

– Exactly.

– You have faith in God. Is it logical for the KGB’s and then the Security Service of Ukraine’s officer?

– Each of us has his own path to God. To tell the truth, in our Institute instead of the words God and Lord we use their synonym “life”. But in almost all primary sources you will find that “God is Life”. Science has not yet been able to answer the question “what is life?” From a physical point of view it has not yet been able to capture the field to which vital energy is transferred. We tried to identify this field, I think it will definitely be found.

By the way, when I was elected a corresponding member of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, one of the academics asked: why do we choose Shevchenko as a corresponding member in the field of computer science, if he is a doctor of theology?

Anyway, most scholars have a positive attitude to faith. Another academician stood up and said: we propose to elect Anatolii Ivanovych a corresponding member of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine in the field of informatics for his contribution to informatics, because the people under his leadership have achieved positive results. As for faith, it is everyone’s business.

I think we have no choice but to continue to study human nature, all its functions. To create artificial intelligence, we need to know about its conscience and consciousness. If we want it to be really artificial intelligence, we need our artificial systems.

Recorded by Serhiy Polyovyk