Oksana Mitrofanova: “It seems to me the world is impressed by the image of Ukrainian cyborgs who have to endure everything”

Ph.D. in Politics, the Europe-Eurasia Research Center (CREE), France

— You have been staying in France for more than a year. And although you are considered a refugee, you have the opportunity to do what you have devoted your life to: science and lecturing for students. With such current events (I mean the Russian-Ukrainian war), can this be considered personal good luck?

— It is not easy for me to answer this question. After all, in Europe, in particular, in France, there are many of our refugees, and few of them manage to work in their specialty. I was lucky to have a desire and an opportunity. After all, even before the war, I was in France, worked in educational institutions. At the same time, I had the opportunity to participate in TV programs, answering topical questions from French TV presenters about Ukraine.

— What do they want to learn, raising the topic of current events in Ukraine?

— In general, they want to learn more about military operations. But sometimes I have to deny or clarify something. Perhaps because they are watching this war from the sidelines, and I, so to speak, from the inside. Recently, I had a serious argument with my French colleague, who has visited Kyiv many times since 2006, where he was actually caught by Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Right now, he is completing his doctoral thesis, where he calls the war “hybrid”, analyzing, among others, Ukrainian-language sources. He loves Tchaikovsky’s music, which the Kyiv Opera has refused to perform today, and he wonders whether it will sound after the war… For him, this is our war, the war of Ukrainians. The same as for my 70-year-old Kyiv neighbor, who came under fire from Russian “Grads” and has serious injuries, almost incurable. Her son-in-law is fighting near Bakhmut. And my classmate’s husband and brother died in this war, she was left with two children. However, we must pay tribute to this Frenchman: in March 2022, he made several transfers to the Armed Forces of Ukraine from his modest teacher’s salary, because “it is the Armed Forces of Ukraine that should be helped”.

— Do you speak on this in your speeches on French television?

— I am said to be calm, balanced, sometimes critical on the screen of French television. Without unnecessary emotions, I correct French opponents, explaining that, for example, the French MLRS LRU is not a “brother, but a cousin of HIMARS”, because it has modifications and moves on tracks, and in winter this is a great advantage; that the MiGs provided to Ukraine by Poland, although they will not radically affect the situation, are much needed, because thanks, armed with American HARM missiles, can destroy the air defense of the Russians, and in general, MiGs are needed to cover the infantry… I need to comment on this unequivocally, but carefully, bearing in mind that reserve or retired French generals present next to me on television, preparing for the broadcast, due to the language barrier, they cannot read either the explanations of the Spokesperson of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Yurii Ignat, or the latest information of the General Staff of Ukraine.

However, at every opportunity, I thank the French government for the help it has provided us with. Although this is someone else’s war to it, the Armed Forces of Ukraine need French Caesars, Crotale and Mamba air defense systems, LRU MLRS, long-range SCALP missiles, etc. And this aid is coming, although, of course, there is some political pressure on French President Macron, because, by the way, now in France, bread products have risen in price, electricity is not cheap, inflation is growing — and ordinary French people feel it. And they are used to a comfortable life… You know, it seems to me the world is impressed by the image of Ukrainian cyborgs who have to endure everything.

— You mentioned the French President, and that it is not easy for him to perform his duties now because of political pressure. In your opinion, is this due to Russia’s attack on Ukraine or something else?

— President of France Emmanuel Macron, in his speech in February 2022, emphasized Putin’s responsibility for unleashing a war of aggression and unequivocally stated that he stands on the side of Ukraine, and pointed out the bravery of the Ukrainian people. Let me remind you that during the presidential election in April 2022, he focused on foreign policy issues to strengthen France’s role in the EU, in the context of Russia’s war against Ukraine and, accordingly, on curbing Putin’s external encroachments. He said then that “…the events of last night (February 24) mark a turning point in the history of Europe and Ukraine. They will have long-lasting, profound consequences for the future of life, for the geopolitics of our continent, and we will only be able to respond to them together”.

— He was not always so unambiguous, if we recall his views on supplying us with the necessary weapons…

— Remember, a month after the start of the war, in March, at the NATO and G7 summits and at the meeting of the European Council in Brussels, Macron, on the one hand, insisted on continuing the supply of defensive and lethal weapons to Ukraine, and on the other hand, opposed the supply of tanks and aircrafts, because this, so to speak, would mean “complicity in the war”. And his further presidential steps could not but please us: he appealed to French companies operating in sectors subject to sanctions against the Russian Federation with a demand to comply with the decisions of the French government. And he suggested that other companies decide for themselves whether to maintain ties with Russia or not. He warned of the threat of a food crisis caused by the war in Ukraine.

— Let’s recall his other statements, to which Ukrainians reacted…

— We have not forgotten how on April 13, 2022, Macron distanced himself from the statement of Joe Biden, who called the actions of the Russian army in Ukraine genocide. Speaking about Russia’s war crimes, he stressed at the same time that the Ukrainian and the Russian peoples are “fraternal peoples”. On the same day, Volodymyr Zelenskyi called Macron’s words, which repeated Putin’s propaganda narrative, disappointing.

There are many other facts of that time that are still considered unacceptable today. But let’s be objective: it was French experts who were the first of all foreigners to analyze the war crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine. By the way, they hope that their work will have the proper result and the Russians will be punished for their crimes. However, in general, Macron’s tactic, which was aimed at maintaining channels of communication with Putin, did not yield any positive results. And this has been confirmed over time.

— But he tried to actively communicate with Putin…

— Macron’s phone communication with Putin was negatively perceived not only by us, but also by the society of Central European countries. It is likely that his desire to communicate caused Russia to want to use, so to speak, the tactics of a “useful idiot”. After all, I think that Macron did not intend to play such a role and in response used double-bottom tactics, which few people are able to decipher even in France. While politicians and analysts in December 2022 were racking their brains over the controversial statements of the French President that it was necessary to provide “security guarantees to Russia on the day it returns to the negotiating table”, which seemed like an oxymoron, the French government calmly and systematically intensified military assistance to Ukraine. It is this assistance that is a priority in the context of Russia’s full-scale war against Ukraine. And while Macron’s statements were disseminated by the media, the implementation of some specific projects did take place. In particular, France quietly supplied modern 5^th-generation anti-tank missile systems to the Armed Forces of Ukraine. According to Kyiv experts, there was a breakthrough in the military-political dialogue between France and Ukraine as a result of the visit of the Minister of the Armed Forces of France Sébastien Lecornu to Kyiv on December 28, 2022. At the beginning of 2023, France was called “a volcano that encourages other states to initiate breakthrough solutions in support of Ukraine”. In particular, the French were the first to report the provision of AMX-10RC wheeled tanks. As pointed out by one of our experts, the French government adheres to deadlines in the supply of weapons to Ukraine.

— Obviously, this is the case, because later the French began to actively take our side.

— Suffice it to recall how in March 2022, France began supplying Ukraine with the necessary equipment: several dozen Milan anti-tank missile systems, 27 pieces of fire and rescue equipment for our rescuers. Subsequently, the former Minister of the French Armed Forces, Florence Parly, confirmed that France had provided Ukraine with military equipment worth 100 million Euros and that this would continue in the future.

On the eve of the second round of the presidential election, Macron said in an interview with Ouest-France that France supplies Ukraine with 155 mm Caesar howitzers, which hit a target at a distance of more than 40 kilometers, and is ready to transfer thousands of shells to Kyiv. At an international donors’ conference held in Warsaw on May 5, 2022, the French leader announced that France would increase its contribution from 1.7 billion to 2 billion US dollars, allocating an additional 300 million US dollars for financial, economic, and humanitarian aid to Ukraine. At the end of last year, Macron promised to provide Ukraine with Crotale air defense systems and multiple rocket launchers.

Since I am not a military professional by education, when preparing for the next TV broadcast, I found out what that Crotale was about, how such weapons could be used in the front-line zone to destroy enemy aircrafts and helicopters, and in the rear to intercept cruise missiles. As we know, the latter factor is very important in the context of Russia’s destruction of Ukraine’s energy sector by cruise missiles. Crotale-NG is an effective short-range air defense system developed at the end of the 20^th century. At the same time, it should be borne in mind that the persistence of the Ukrainian government in requests for weapons sometimes causes a negative assessment in private conversations of some French pro-government deputies. It should be understood that the concern of the French arises as a result of their awareness of the limited number of weapons in their own storages. Observing a full-scale Russian-Ukrainian war, in which a significant number of artillery and tanks are used, which France has in limited numbers, makes the French military conclude that France’s readiness for a hypothetical continental war is insufficient. And France, as you know, proposes to create the European army, so the French leadership is a consistent apologist for the development of “European strategic autonomy”. At the same time, the Ministry of the Armed Forces of France emphasizes the development of its own light ground forces, equipped with wheeled armored vehicles. In total, it is known that France is armed with 222 Leclerc tanks and about 4300 wheeled armored vehicles of all types…

— …and hypothetically, the Armed Forces of Ukraine could become a significant component of such an army. Okay, as you know, we get other necessary things from France along with the equipment. Not only our volunteers know this well. When you had a chance to communicate with your French colleagues, members of the French Parliament, did they unequivocally advocate such assistance, were there any objections?

— All in all, France has delivered more than 800 tons of humanitarian aid to Ukraine, including medicines, medical, rescue and firefighting equipment, generators for hospitals, tents, blankets, hygiene kits, and food. At the same time, they hope that such assistance will reach the appropriate addressees. Some mayors of French cities have already visited Ukraine and brought humanitarian aid from their communities. It is indicative that representatives of different political forces in French mayor’s offices were sympathetic to the reception of refugees from Ukraine. Thus, French political scientists were pleasantly surprised by the position of Louis Aliot, the mayor of Perpignan, a representative of the National Rally (the heir to the National Front, which has traditionally taken a negative position on migrants), who back in April 2022 called for the acceptance and support of Ukrainian refugees in France.

— How do the French media comment on the Russians’ war crimes for their audience? After all, it is no secret that in the Western TV channels subordinated to the Russians, the consequences of the attack on Ukraine have a different “connotation”, similar to the way Moscow presents them in Russia.

— I am not interested in Western TV channels subordinated to the Russians. Therefore, a few words about those leading French TV channels who have repeatedly invited me to their programs. In general, the activities of the French media can be considered a separate topic in French-Ukrainian relations. Before the full-scale war, presence of French journalists in Ukraine was quite modest, and there was also a lack of our voice in French media, which was one of the reasons for France’s poor understanding of our problems. Everything was changed by a full-scale war. French journalists, covering the events in Ukraine, take risks and are well aware that they can pay with their lives for a truthful story. We remember how in May 2022, French journalist for the BFMTV channel Frédéric Leclerc-Imhoff was killed by Russian shelling while preparing a story about a humanitarian operation near Sievierodonetsk. By the way, the National Antiterrorism Prosecutor’s Office of France announced the opening of an investigation into a war crime…

Now French TV channels are trying to invite Ukrainians to cover events in Ukraine firsthand. At least, in the debates on France 24 and in the La Chaîne Info (LCI), to which I am invited, TV presenters constantly ask the opinions of our citizens about the future of Ukraine. Sometimes, after such programs, my acquaintances ask me to tell more about Ukrainian society, for example, about how Ukrainians manage to survive and arrange their lives in the conditions of massive bombing in winter.

All those “well-wishers” who are trying to spread the narrative that French journalists are exaggerating, I want to ask a question: would they like to be in their place in Ukraine and experience what befalls them? For example, a year ago I attended a debate on Ukraine on France 24. According to the plan, French reporter Elena Volochine was broadcasting from Kharkiv, when suddenly explosions began around her and the broadcast interrupted. And it was not known what exactly happened to her at that moment. I don’t know exactly how to explain it, but after this incident, when I see Elena in the corridors and on the air of France 24, I perceive her as a person and a professional who understands Ukrainians, having her own “frontline” experience.

These two French TV channels, I believe, provide harsh and truthful information about the war crimes of the Russians. Thus, the French government provided support in documenting and investigating crimes committed by the Russian military in the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine. France made an advance payment of an annual contribution of 13 million Euros and an additional exceptional contribution of 500 thousand Euros to the International Criminal Court and provided ten investigators to process the relevant documents.

— I can’t help asking about Ukrainian refugees who have found refuge in France. The topic, in my opinion, is quite specific in France, if we also mean immigrants arriving there from the Middle East and Africa. Our television sometimes shows their protests when they demand appropriate support for adaptation.

— I will tell you about our citizens who are here now. In general, the French government ensured that they were properly received. As of the summer of 2023, there are about 120 thousand of them registered in France. A temporary protection mechanism has been introduced, including the right to reside, access to the labor market, social and medical assistance, and education. It should be borne in mind that the positive behavior of Ukrainian refugees has a significant impact on their perception by the French. In particular, according to Stéphane Rambaud, a member of the National Assembly of France, a representative of the National Rally, all other refugees in France should behave in the same way as Ukrainians who respect the law, learn the language, and seek to integrate into the French society. Then there would be no problems.

— Okay, I don’t have the opportunity to ask our refugees about their impressions of French hospitality, so would you like to return to Kyiv because of the lack of opportunity to provide yourself with everything you need for life in France?

— You know, each refugee has his/her own story. In France, there are many opportunities to provide oneself with everything one needs. At the beginning of my stay, I had few household items, and the French helped me very quickly. The French government, as I have already mentioned, has made sure that refugees have health insurance, which, among other things, allows them to use dental services, if necessary, to get free glasses. The only thing that can be complained about is the notorious French bureaucracy in the execution of many documents. But it must be understood that the French themselves suffer from it in the first place, spending a lot of time filling out some dossiers, and they admit that they themselves are confused by complex formulations.

— You have repeatedly participated in French TV broadcasts, which were also attended by French colleagues. Who are they by profession? Did they actively object when you had to correct them about certain conclusions regarding Ukraine’s policy?

— Retired generals are often invited to French TV on war issues (some of them have the status of paid consultants for TV channels, but it should be borne in mind that the active military are officially restricted in their speeches), political scientists, historians, lawyers, and international journalists. Ukrainians and sometimes Russian oppositionists are also invited. I don’t remember anyone on television disagreeing with my conclusions related to the politics of Ukraine. On the contrary, it was highly desirable to provide an analysis of the current situation by the Ukrainian military: the Ministry of Defense, the General Staff, representatives of the branches of the Armed Forces, and military analysts.

Disputes occur mainly at conferences. But if suddenly a Frenchman begins to stubbornly convince that the war began because of the Americans or NATO, then there is nothing one can do about it, because there is no real dialogue.

Once, such a situation arose with a retired colonel. And when my French colleague pointed out that Ukrainians die from the wreckage of Russian, not American, missiles, the opponent still remained in his opinion. Later, when I gave a lecture to students (by the way, they are very interested in the defense industry of Ukraine, in particular such developments as Hrim missiles, Neptun complex, which hit the Russian warship Moskva, with the anti-tank system Stuhna), I heard a question from the audience: “Why does Ukraine not advertise its weapons in view of future cooperation?”

Once, together with General Michel Yakovleff, former Vice Chief of Staff at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, I made a report on military operations in Ukraine. One of the opponents said with skepticism that only those retirees who do not speak Russian are invited to TV, and therefore do not understand anything, while professionals with a different position on Russia are not given the floor. So, the General calmly asked him to explain what exactly he was wrong about when analyzing the war in Ukraine. General Yakovleff’s balanced reaction and endurance impressed me very much. And a few days after our report, he said in the press that he considers the Ukrainian army today to be the best in Europe.

— I can’t help asking about the reaction of the French society to Ukraine’s accession to NATO. Officially, we know about this based on the results of the Vilnius Summit. But what was the reaction, of so to speak, ordinary French citizens?

— We all know about the official position: at the end of June 2023, Macron called on the Vilnius NATO Summit to determine a specific path to Ukraine’s membership in the Alliance. In July 2023, at the NATO summit, Macron said that France would deliver long-range SCALP missiles to Ukraine, which are an analogue of the British Storm Shadow. He also added that he understands the disappointment of the Ukrainian side with the decisions that were made at the Vilnius Summit. And he stressed that it is the duty of Western countries to stay with Ukraine. Although I believe that the communication strategy of the French government regarding Ukraine has not always been successful, sometimes it is designed for the domestic consumer worried about inflation. At the same time, it should be borne in mind that in France there are strong tendencies of anti-Americanism and Gaullism, whose adherents have sought and will seek to influence the President of the French Republic. And our authorities should not neglect this.

Recorded by Oleh Makhno

The full interview you can read in the
“BINTEL” Geopolitical Analytics Journal, Issue 3, 2023